Host City Documentation

[Syd Malicious]

Is there a chance that we could have a statute of limitations? Like, if I wanted to see information from 3 or 4 years ago, could I? I hear what you're saying about too many people cluttering up the space where people are working. But after, when the work is done and the space is clear, is there any danger in opening it up to outside analysis?

Alternatively, could a person apply for permission to view the information? Like, Dear HCCs past and present, I would like to put together a poetry yellow pages so that you may have additional resources at your hands from outside your city should you choose to use them. In order to know what will be helpful to you, I'd like to view the process. I feel like that's LESS clutter than if I were to go hounding after people looking for information that I don't have direct access to.

[Syd Malicious]

I guess another way to say that last part is, I agree with you that the only reason to see everything is if you're going to participate in some way, but I don't necessarily see a place for me in the existing machinery. Or rather, the thing I think I can contribute is not something that exists yet. Also, I think there is a point at which lack of information is a deterrent from doing work. Aside from knowing what's on the HCC forum, I had no idea there even was an HCC forum. I'm a person who likes to look at the machine and say 'Oh, pistons! I know pistons!' as opposed to 'Hey I want to help, does this machine have pistons I can tinker with?' Cuz the fear there is that I'm offering something useless and wasting someone's time in the process.

[Scott Woods]

I guess another way to say that last part is, I agree with you that the only reason to see everything is if you're going to participate in some way, but I don't necessarily see a place for me in the existing machinery. Or rather, the thing I think I can contribute is not something that exists yet. Also, I think there is a point at which lack of information is a deterrent from doing work. Aside from knowing what's on the HCC forum, I had no idea there even was an HCC forum. I'm a person who likes to look at the machine and say 'Oh, pistons! I know pistons!' as opposed to 'Hey I want to help, does this machine have pistons I can tinker with?' Cuz the fear there is that I'm offering something useless and wasting someone's time in the process.

Well, first off, you're never wasting anyone's time by offering to help. Even if I didn't need the help at that moment in the area you're talking about I may be privy to a development we're addressing or have a piece of vision that I want implemented that you might be able to help on that you don't know about. Also, no one should be perceiving the EC as the people you take your good ideas to solely to make happen. I very often have suggested to people to bring things to the EC so that we might assign someone as oversight who has access to the big picture and acts as a guide for a member that wants to run with a project. This is kind of how the new newsletter by Faylita got out the gate. We're pretty busy on our own, so it's always good to spread the wealth in a reasonable way (prioritized and in line with mission, of course). That takes a lot of trust too, on both sides.

This is my way of saying you'd be surprised how you can fit into the machine. We still have lots of fundamental things that need built. You don't need to be on EC to do that. We have an ongoing list of projects and developemtns we look at that we sometimes cross an item off of, sometimes add an item on to. I think your skill set thread is a good place to start. If I, as someone who knows what every part of the machine is doing, knew your skill set I bet I could find something you could lead with our oversight and support that would be cool. But I don't know that skill set and I don't know you. Let's find ways to rectify those gaps don't turn each other off (since you could be awesome at something but if I don't like you, I won't work with you or compel my staff to either).

To your question about access to the documents, I would say not to pursue that course of action. I WOULD suggest that, as the lead of a project involving say, the development of a document for potential host cities to utilize or for potential HCs to consider, you should work with an EC member to determine how best to utilize that information in such a project. It might mean you gain access to some things as a project lead or it might not. That's part of the project development process. But as of right now I'd be against sharing that information at large by request or time limit. Some of it is (not most, but some), simply put, best left in the past and would just feed all the wrong elements of our community with stuff that ultimately, is irrelevant to what needs to be addressed with work now. This isn't just me trying to protect the EC or something. I can think of a number of former HCs who would rather we didn't ever share that info too.

[BrianOmniDillon]

While I personally still would really love to see ALLL of that information, I understand perfectly why I cannot. Why that creates unnecessary headaches. Reasonable in every way.

However, my follow-up would be: what about hyper-specific pieces of information that could be culled from those documents. Information relevant to the projects we are attempting to undertake.

If not, then one thing we mentioned is the idea of just, knowing who the former HC's are. Allowing us to contact each independently, and request to 'interview' them on their experience. what was easy. what was difficult. what steps each of them took to promote and market the tournament. If we could cross-reference all the various marketing inititatives that different tournaments in enacted (or chose not to enact) with the results of how those tournaments fared, we might have some useful data.

Again, as has been mentioned repeatedly, and rightfully so - each tournament, city, even venue, is unique. But if we noticed that some marketing tactics were employed unilaterally, some inconsistently, some only once...we might learn something valuable about how our events are marketed.

So unless i missed it, is it not possible to get the info on who Syd and I can reach out to about their individual tournament experiences? I can come up with some names on my own. But it would be incomplete for sure. And if you would be uneasy just handing out emails (which i certainly wouldnt contest), could YOU, or the EC reach out to these individuals and ask if they would consent to taking part in an informal poll about their experience? Then directing them to us? Is this the sort of thing that would traditionally require a vote?

I think this initial information-culling process is vital to how we shape the coming body of this idea. Whatever insight you can offer is greatly appreciated.

[Syd Malicious]

I second everything Omni said, but I have one point of contention which is this:

If I, as someone who knows what every part of the machine is doing, knew your skill set I bet I could find something you could lead with our oversight and support that would be cool. But I don't know that skill set and I don't know you. Let's find ways to rectify those gaps don't turn each other off (since you could be awesome at something but if I don't like you, I won't work with you or compel my staff to either).

I have a very fundamental problem with hearing 'That's not the EC's job' and then being told 'This is what the EC thinks YOUR job is.'

This isn't specific to this particular debate. And I'm not pointing fingers. I see this as a universal problem not specific to any one person and I care enough about this particular project that I'll jump through whatever the necessary hoops are. But that kind of contortionist behavior is not sustainable. For anyone. Even assuming that I trust you unconditionally (which, personal bias aside, I do not; the validity of my distrust is demonstrated by the fact that we bury mistakes in the past and don't let anyone touch the evidence instead of allowing helpful and genuinely interested people to examine it to look for ways to improve), if I tell you, my specialties are chi-square and two-sample z-prop tests, would you even know what that means, let alone how to utilize it? This might be another debate for another thread, but it's come up independently on at least 3 threads I've been a part of. If I open a new thread will I get a real answer?

Anyhow.

As I said, I second everything Omni said. And I'm excited to be more involved. And I'm excited to see progress happen. This is a good time to be a poet.

[BrianOmniDillon]

It might be another thread. And i sympathize with that frustration, though im willing to surrender some of my moral itches in an effort to achieve what i think can be achieved at this very moment, without putting my head under the hood.

[Syd Malicious]

Yep, I'm moving on. I just wanted to put it on the record that I disagree.

Back to business.

[Scott Woods]

If not, then one thing we mentioned is the idea of just, knowing who the former HC's are.

As far as I'm concerned that's already public information so of course I wouldn't have a problem with anyone "having it."
It is a list that can be compiled, sure. I'm happy to do that but you will have to wait for it a little bit (unless someone beats me to the punch).

[Scott Woods]

I have a very fundamental problem with hearing 'That's not the EC's job' and then being told 'This is what the EC thinks YOUR job is.'

And now, you have misinterpreted my view of that process and relationship. It isn't a "You: go do this. Me: boss." view or relationship to me, and anyone who's worked with me in that capacity will tell you that. But since you seem content with your analysis, carry on.

[Syd Malicious]

I'm not trying to read into your motives or assign you a view on anything. My cumulative experience in this organization has led me to this feeling. I'm willing to have my mind changed.

[BrianOmniDillon]

I don't think anyone believes the president, or EC's relationship with the body - least of all Syd and I - is anything remotely near a scenario which is "jump! How high?"  in nature. Everyone I know who has worked directly with/under you has had nothing but glowing reccomendations with regard to your reason and competence. The question of whether or not all members need to know everything the powers that be do; is a challenging and multiplicitous one. One that is neither easy to settle or applicable to the heart of this threads genesis. I believe I speak for Syd when I say we are most concerned with the reliable expansion and proficiency of our artform before we are anything else, at all.

I have faith in our leadership. If for no other reason than that they have got us where we are now. Which is a pretty remarkable place. Please don't mistake curiosity for disrespect. We are both sorting out our boundaries in how we can bbest assist our peers.


Much respect.

[Steve]

Let me try to answer some of what you may be perceiving. I offer this honestly and without prejudice for the questions: Sometimes answering a lot of well-meaning inquiry just gets in the way of doing the things that drive this cart forward. No one, not even your paid staff does this as his or her living. It is all part-time at best and so time, being finite, means requests for information, attention, change, etc. (being apparently infinite) SEEM like they fill up the limited time any of us can devote to the real work of making PSi function.

Please, don't anyone read that I am saying your questions are inappropriate. I am saying that we are already dancing as hard as possible. Sometimes it takes 24 hours or more to get an answer ready to go. Or a response to your request or an answer to an email. Sometimes requests come at exactly the wrong moment. Next week might be better, but by the time we get to next week, I've had two or three other things that had high priority. Sometimes we need a reminder that we said we would do something, not because we are stalling or ignoring, but because a hundred other things are demanding our attention and energy.

Poets and organizers can be a pretty volatile collection. Don't blow up or use inflammatory language and insults. At least with me the likely response is to say, I have a hundred things to do today. This rude fellow just went to the back of the line. Sorry, if that isn't human nature, it is mine.

All people do what they can do and they don't do more. It is likely we need someone working the information desk at all times. But right now, about six of us try to take turns there on top of our other responsibilities.

And, if that seems hard to believe, drift back over these recent threads and see who is answering questions and how many questions there have been. I don't claim this is the best system for information dispersal, but it is the system we have.

[Syd Malicious]

Understood. No disrespect. Omni and I are just trying to figure out what information we are able to get a hold of in order to determine how to go about our project. If there is any particular type or amount of documentation from past HCs that we are able to view we would really appreciate knowing what it is and how to go about requesting it. Knowing who the HCCS are is an awesome start. Is there anything else y'all can provide us with or another direction you can send us in?

[Scott Woods]

What information we can give will be based on what the purpose for asking is.
Please forward your request directly to Executive Director Abigail Ehn, describing what you are attempting to accomplish with the information.

[BrianOmniDillon]

Sounds perfectly reasonable. Syd and i will draft a letter together this weekend and get it out. Appreciate the response and willingness to listen.