a couple random NPS questions

[BrianOmniDillon]

Follow @Erik_Daniel to get the bout draw updates. It appears we'll have it Sunday.

[Dahled]

@Dahled I completely understand what you are saying. This is not a NEW change. This has been this way for years. Maybe you have always volunteered enough hours and it wasn't an issue.

that's just factually incorrect. it is actually a new change, just one that's been coming for a while. if this is the first year it's this way it's new. this is, in fact, the first year that only 5 passes are given. up to and including last year 6 were available to teams bringing 5 on the team and a coach or SM. as for me personally, I've been on teams for 9 of the last 10 years. in every one of those years, save one, we brought 6 and got lanyards for all.

@scott - it's shortsighted because it puts an added financial burden on the folks that are already carrying a large portion of the water for the organization. With travel and lodging we're paying through the nose to participate as it is, an extra $75 is just an added finger in the eye. If it causes more frustration with psI and drives even a single SM away from wanting to field a team it's not worth it. Maybe a better term would be penny wise and pound foolish.

[inkera]

@Dahled I thought you were referring to volunteering and a finals ticket. Accept my apology for misunderstanding.

[Dahled]

@Dahled I thought you were referring to volunteering and a finals ticket. Accept my apology for misunderstanding.

I see what happened there... no apologies necessary, more my misunderstanding than yours it seems.

[Scott Woods]

@scott - it's shortsighted because it puts an added financial burden on the folks that are already carrying a large portion of the water for the organization. With travel and lodging we're paying through the nose to participate as it is, an extra $75 is just an added finger in the eye. If it causes more frustration with psI and drives even a single SM away from wanting to field a team it's not worth it. Maybe a better term would be penny wise and pound foolish.

Dahled,

The year that $75 is the deal breaker for you getting to Nats is probably a year you shouldn't go. Or volunteer more.

[simone]

Um, $75 per coach is not a "penny" for NPS or PSi. Even if only half of the teams have a coach who purchases a pass, that's $2,850. That's enough to cover printing for our Festival Guide. Or pay for 5 1/2 bus shelter advertisements. Or 90% of what it would have cost to rent our Finals venue.

I do realize that it is an expensive trip from Oakland to Boston, and that it's no joke trying to raise the money to get here. I am really glad that you guys are making it. But I supported the 5-pass limit even before I realized how bare-bones the budget for NPS really has to be; until the coach provides value to PSi/the show in some way (which I don't think s/he does), I think PSi should continue to charge for that sixth pass.

I did have a pass purchaser ask me if PSi members received a discount on Festival Passes, and had to say no. In the future, I think it could be worth working up different price schedules for members/non-members/high-level members. Some of our coaches are SMs, which means they are at least Associate Members by PSi suggestion.

[jesster]

PSi still pays for a team of 4 plus an extra person (slam master, coach, alternate, 5th poet, etc) to go to all events for free. This is the first year that we are bringing a 6th person, a coach, to nats. While I admittedly forgot about the coach not being covered, we were able to get it paid for with a minor shift in fundraising and will still make it. Getting 6 people into hotel rooms is much more of a concern.

Next year, we may go back to just bringing 5 people, but it won't be because of the extra pass. Calling it a finger in the eye is pure hyperbole.

-Jesse

[Dahled]

some teams bring 4, some 5, others 6 - how about the cost reflect that? what if $450 got your team registered and 4 passes, $500 got you 5 passes and $550 got 6? Or what if some other consideration was given... say teams were able to purchase an additional pass or 2 at 1/2 price or some other discounted rate? It's not just this - it's this on top of the (continued use of an) expensive hotel, and the increase in registration (a couple years back) and that doesn't take into account increased travel costs, etc.

@scott - I signed up to volunteer when the call first went out and this probably is my last nps for a while. dunno what that means for my team yet. we'll probably let whoever the top 4 are at finals next year decide if they want to self finance.
@jesse - not hyperbole at all... "knife in the back" would be hyperbole. "finger in the eye" generally refers to some relatively slight slight, often one that is unintended to begin with. think slightly stronger than "straw that broke the camels back".
@simone - fielding a team adds no value? If not for the SMs there wouldn't really be a nat's, certainly not one of this scale. I certainly agree that there should be different pricing options.

[jesster]

some teams bring 4, some 5, others 6 - how about the cost reflect that? what if $450 got your team registered and 4 passes, $500 got you 5 passes and $550 got 6? Or what if some other consideration was given... say teams were able to purchase an additional pass or 2 at 1/2 price or some other discounted rate? It's not just this - it's this on top of the (continued use of an) expensive hotel, and the increase in registration (a couple years back) and that doesn't take into account increased travel costs, etc.

I think this is a sound solution, or at least an option to consider. It at least makes sure that the teams who don't need the additional passes are not penalized for those who do. The problem then becomes teams who want 7. Then 8. Where does it end?

I am definitely sensitive to the rising prices of competition. The last 2 years, I've been able to organize a small regional team competition through sponsorships with no registration fee and free lodging that still has a cash prize. Small events that require driving are a big difference from the international madness that is NPS, though. Which is why there's a PSi development director writing grant requests. Hopefully, that person is able to make progress and we can defray the costs of NPS in the future.

@jesse - not hyperbole at all... "knife in the back" would be hyperbole. "finger in the eye" generally refers to some relatively slight slight, often one that is unintended to begin with. think slightly stronger than "straw that broke the camels back".

I think if I stick my finger in your eye, you may disagree. Let's meet in the middle on "idiom" and leave it be.

-Jesster

[jaz]

some teams bring 4, some 5, others 6 - how about the cost reflect that? what if $450 got your team registered and 4 passes, $500 got you 5 passes and $550 got 6? Or what if some other consideration was given. . .  say teams were able to purchase an additional pass or 2 at 1/2 price or some other discounted rate? It's not just this - it's this on top of the (continued use of an) expensive hotel, and the increase in registration (a couple years back) and that doesn't take into account increased travel costs, etc. 

This seems entirely reasonable to me.  I understand the cost in holding a competition of this size, but it isn't fair to treat slammasters at the same level as the general public, especially considering the work, money, and time they're dedicating to something they, personally, won't be competing in.

As for the slippery slope of setting a limit, I can't imagine a team necessitating more than 6 passes.  This isn't a dealer's price, it's fair treatment for people involved in the production and execution of the event.  If a situation arises where more are needed (the team is five people and they have two coaches, or a coach and a slammaster, etc. ), then they can address that with PSi or that year's NPS crew on an individual basis.

[Scott Woods]

This sounds fine to me too, but it ain't happening before this NPS, FYI.
Someone can put it on the books as a proposal for the EC to consider after this event, though, and should.

[Dahled]

PSi still pays for a team of 4 plus an extra person (slam master, coach, alternate, 5th poet, etc) to go to all events for free.

Jesse, with all due respect, this is simply not true in any way shape or form. It actually couldn't be further from the reality of the situation. psI charges the team to attend the events; that charge is called "registration". We certainly don't get into anything for "free". If I'm not paying for my team to attend the events what exactly was that $500 for?

The last 2 years, I've been able to organize a small regional team competition through sponsorships with no registration fee and free lodging that still has a cash prize. Small events that require driving are a big difference from the international madness that is NPS, though. Which is why there's a PSi development director writing grant requests. Hopefully, that person is able to make progress and we can defray the costs of NPS in the future.

we run our regional here like you run yours - it's either free or cheap to register and if we do charge 100% of that money goes to prizes. I realize that nps is a different kind of beast entirely, with many more moving parts. hopefully the DD can get some grants, that'd be great; I don't honestly expect for that to affect my cost though. (The camp would probably come back and other things like that would happen I'm sure.)

@jaz - team size + 1 or +2 is probably about as far as you need to go. that makes it from 4 to 7 passes required (you can have a team of 4 or 5 w/ an SM and/or coach). The more I think about it the less sense it makes that it's been the same charge weather you brought 4, 5 or 6 folks.

[jesster]

PSi still pays for a team of 4 plus an extra person (slam master, coach, alternate, 5th poet, etc) to go to all events for free.

Jesse, with all due respect, this is simply not true in any way shape or form. It actually couldn't be further from the reality of the situation. psI charges the team to attend the events; that charge is called "registration". We certainly don't get into anything for "free". If I'm not paying for my team to attend the events what exactly was that $500 for?

Well, yes. That's splitting hairs, a bit. Part of the influx of money is definitely registration fees, sponsorships, etc., which then go into a general budget that PSi controls. PSi then controls that money and what it's spent for. One of those things that PSi applies this money to is a ticket package for registered teams.

I agree with you that we pay for it in the same way that we pay for any governance. If 5 "free" tickets were no longer included as part of the package for registration, teams would have to consider whether that was still worth it.

But I agree, it's not "free." It's included in our registration package, which we pay for, along with bags and sometimes t-shirts.

-Jesse

[Dahled]

PSi still pays for a team of 4 plus an extra person (slam master, coach, alternate, 5th poet, etc) to go to all events for free.

Jesse, with all due respect, this is simply not true in any way shape or form. It actually couldn't be further from the reality of the situation. psI charges the team to attend the events; that charge is called "registration". We certainly don't get into anything for "free". If I'm not paying for my team to attend the events what exactly was that $500 for?

Well, yes. That's splitting hairs, a bit. Part of the influx of money is definitely registration fees, sponsorships, etc., which then go into a general budget that PSi controls. PSi then controls that money and what it's spent for. One of those things that PSi applies this money to is a ticket package for registered teams.

I agree with you that we pay for it in the same way that we pay for any governance. If 5 "free" tickets were no longer included as part of the package for registration, teams would have to consider whether that was still worth it.

But I agree, it's not "free." It's included in our registration package, which we pay for, along with bags and sometimes t-shirts.

-Jesse

Um, not really splitting hairs at all... passes are just a part of the package that we pay for. The push back here is because that package used to include up to 6 passes and now it includes up to 5. That's effectively the same thing as registration going up by $75 for some subset of teams (or a volunteer requirement being added). I don't agree that we're paying for this in the same way that we pay for governance - that's what membership fees are for. Registration fees for NPS/iWPS/WoWPS are just that - a charge for a specific activity. Now, if not all of those fees (the $38K that teams have paid in) is used on NPS or if $38,000 plus whatever comes in from the general public/sponsorships/etc isn't enough to make this event happen that's a whole different ball of wax.

@scott - is putting this on the books as a proposal for the EC to consider after NPS something for the SM meeting?

[Scott Woods]

@scott - is putting this on the books as a proposal for the EC to consider after NPS something for the SM meeting?

I would. That way we get more than a handful of people's opinions when we go to make our decision on your behalf.